Ok, I put her in the water and she floated fine, the problem was with stability and how much of the sides was left above water when I was in it.
Reminder on demensions, total length 11'5" at gunnels, 10'6" at floor, Max width at floor in center of length 26", sides flaired to max at 34" in center, it is symetrically tapered to the ends, and the sides are 11" high in the middle and 12 at ends
It seemed like the sides were about 3-4" submerged with me at about 195 and nothing else in the boat. I'm guessing the angle of the sides from the bottom is about 12-15 degrees.
I quickly discovered the seats will likely have to go, sitting on them made the boat feel like it was gonna go over any second, but I was able to balance. I am about 6'4 so sitting height is about 3 feet if I'm sitting up straight, Is it normal for the canoe to feel that unstable, or am I expecting to much from such a small boat?
Sitting on the floor seemed better, not as tippy feeling, I could probably deal with it, but not sure how wife will feel about it.
It seemed to paddle easily, a couple strokes and she was scooting, and seemed easy to keep going strait the little I actually paddled, I was not sure of the ability of the boat, or mine since I have not canoed much in the past, and the water was too cold to swim so I did not do much.
So now for the questions.
Is this thing too small to be useful for calm water canoeing?
Did I make my sides too short for adequite displacement to carry about 345 lbs total weight
Is the stability directly related to the bottom being too narrow or too short?
I only have about 65 dollars material and 5-10 hours labor in it, should I scrap it and start over with a slightly larger plan? Or take the seats out and see how It works for us in calm water?
Attachment: Piro painted.jpg
Hi RJ First I am no expert try this guy www.gsahv.pp.fi/oss/oss.htm When I first went in my canoe {which has no seat yet] having never been in a canoe before it was very scary even with my life jacket on, felt very tippy , I only had a few inches of sides above the water, having no seat in , felt as I was to low almost going to submerge so I stayed near the shore to start with, but after about 20 mins I vertured futher out till eventually I went all the way across Loch Lubnic [near Callender] as I approched the middle I felt strangly apprehensive but I persuaded my self it was no worst than the shore line so I paused there and leaned over both side to get over my fear,once back to the home shore I tried to sink the paddle it floated yes ! Then I tried to sink the canoe, after filling it with water and standing on it till it was completly under the water and it floated to the surface yipee!! now I am more confident still would not go out without life jacket, You could also try lowering the seat your boat build it as you see fit and adjust to suit you,I have even seen boats with bouyance bags tied to their out sides to help, let us know how you get on, more pictures please boat looking good. {phew that was a lot of typing] Bogsdolics
ReplyDeleterj: Dissplacement is directly related to the volume of the boat. LxWxH. The longer and wider the boat, and to a certain extent height of the sides gives you a dissplacement value (there are other factors such as natural bouyancy of the boat)... From the size of your boat, I would say that it may work tandem for day paddling but you should plan on getting wet. Ultimately, it would probably be put to best use as a solo boat for either you or your wife. In any case I also would suggest you lower the seats... I myself am 48 now and I am just not comfortable sitting on the floor of a canoe or boat (my hips and circulation dissagree with the position). Stability is somewhat a relative term. What feels stable to one person may not to another. There has been much published on stability issues with the term "initial stability" being brought up often. I have a cedarstrip canoe called the Hiawatha designed by Ted Moores of the book Canoecraft. This boat, which is the first canoe I built, is just shy of 16' with a beam of 33" and max depth of 12". When my wife and I first tried it out it was very scary because we thought we were going to tip at any second. I went back to the shop, lowered the seats by an inch and it was better. Now, my wife and I hop into it with no problems, and take long day paddles on lakes and rivers. I will tell you that I have used it extensively for solo paddling including week long camping trips in the Boundary Waters. It is an awesome solo canoe for paddling and fishing. I even flyfish from it. I would definitely not scrap it, you did a beautiful job and should be justly proud of yourself. By all means try again! Have fun, gain confidence, and keep building...
ReplyDeleteRJ
ReplyDeleteAs to Andy's suggestion of lowering the seat, I built a 12 ft. solo boat called the swamp girl from JEM. I installed a bass boat seat on the floor tilted back slightly to give my knees a comfortable bend instead of my legs being straight forward. With a kayak paddle, this old man can run the river all day and hold his own with the youngsters. I have the back of the seat flush to the floor and the front elevated 1.5 in. with this center of gravity, the stability is great. I hope this helps.
RJ, Forgot to ask, have you tried it with another person on board. I ask this because you may find that while the gun'ls sit an inch further down, you may be greatly increasing the stability because the boat forms more pressure or resistance to rolling as the flair of the sides "pushes" against the pressure of the water... One other note, if you have children, you may find that this one is just the right size for kids to use, and probably have a ball with it! Andy
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the replies, I again tried the piro sitting on the floor, I probably could make it work for me with a double end paddle, but.... even raising my knees to ease the pressure on the backside made it feel like it could go over, and there was no way I could put two persons in it, so I decided to test the glue. I won't bore you with the details, but if I had not set out to intentionally cause failure on the joints I think the thing would have lasted quite a while. Later on I'm gonna build another from either a DK or JEM plan, and use 3M adhesive, and include glass tape and resin on the joints. I want to make sure it will hold me and wife (about 340 lbs) be stable in mostly calm water paddling, and light enough I can lift it the the roof of the SUV for transport. When I start that project (hopefully later this summer) I'll post photos during that procedure. Thanks again for the encouragement and advise
ReplyDeleteHow about a detachable outrigger!
ReplyDeleteAt 12' length, it is quite small.. More of kid size.. I haven't have any problems with mine. I loaded 450 pounds into a 16' pirogue, not a bit of funny feelings and have 9" of freeboard yet..
ReplyDeleteI was thinking around 15-16 ft, guess from what you are saying that will work, thanks.
ReplyDeleteWhile I am no expert, I grew up in a pirogue, own several, and have helped build a few. An 11.5 to 12 foot version would be great for kids to learn how to handle a pirogue. For fishing, hunting, a 13.6 to 14 foot will carry a man and necessary gear. The old timers who used them for their livelyhood built 16 and 18 foot models.Using a pirogue is somewhat of an art, sometimes you do not have much freeboard. So, they become a bit tender and will tip over easily. You could compare it to learning to ride a bicycle. Once you learn to gain your balance while moving on the water it becomes a pretty stable craft. You know you have arrived when you can stand up and push pole the pirogue on a shallow tidal flat.
ReplyDeleteYes, it worked fine at 16', I have 12" sideboards, 33-1/2" beam sideboard to sideboard (not including rubrails) bottom max beam is 27" Mine is quite heavy built around about 90 pounds.. See your other posts about my pirogue. Don't scrap the one you just built, save it for kids to use or sell it.
ReplyDeleteDear RJW, I just finished building a glide-easy canoe (see my reply to New Canoe). My wife is very skittish about lateral stability in a boat so i fashioned a 12' spar across the thwart and attached pontoons to either end. Now the canoe is stable enough for me to stand up and walk around in choppy water. The spar and pontoons are thumb screw detachable for easy transport and setup. David
ReplyDeleteThe boat as built sounds a bit small for someone of your size to have a raised seat, let alone two. But you can easily save your project. Cut a piece of thin ply(1/4") 16" x 12" to make a seat, or if you have a big butt, just wide enough to sit on. Attach a bit of 2"x 3/4" timber to the long side to raise the seat at the foreward end and chamfer the underside so the seat will sit flat. Take out the existing middle seat and rough position the new seat. About the same place as the one you have taken out. Put the boat in the water, climb in and sit on the new seat. This should improve the stabillity no end as you are sitting below the waterline. Position yourself and the new seat so the boat floats level and note the position you are sitting in with some masking tape. It helps to have someone checking if the boat is level from the shore for this. When you get the boat back home fit the new seat so as it is always in the same position. Add a brace1"x1 1/2" at gunwale level about 3-4"" behind the back of the seat that will stiffen up the hull, as you have removed the old seats. You can then add a back rest on this brace to make your paddling more comfortable. It is important that you are sitting dead on the centre line of the boat from the start otherwise you will be constantly trying to retrim the boat. This will make the boat feel unstable, even if it is not. Having a small seat as I have described will make finding the right trim easy every time and its raised front edge will add to your comfort. Happy cruising Jeff
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